Cyclists riding in pedestrianised areas in Town Centre !!!!

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Re: Cyclists riding in pedestrianised areas in Town Centre !

Postby EWW » 07 May 2015, 12:43

I have NO problem whatsoever of people who need to ride an adapted bike/trike/rickshaw or
any other form of transport to enable them to access the town centre if they have a disability.

My gripe is about able bodied fit people riding in and out of pedestrians as if they are in some
sort of slalom race. Those type of cretins are a menace and should be taken to task at every
opportunity. If a car driver gets pulled over for having no insurance the car is immediatly
seized until the driver shows a valid certificate of insurance and a licence, pays a storage fee
then they get their car back. With cycles I would do much the same. Confiscate the bike until
they pay a fine to get it back. I will reiterate, this does not apply to the less fortunate who
has perambulatory problems.

Part of Norfolk street is pedestrianised with limited usage for motor vehicles and thats fine.
The areas of the whole length of High street, New Conduit street, Tower street, Broad street
are the areas that I am concerned about.
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Re: Cyclists riding in pedestrianised areas in Town Centre !

Postby MJR » 07 May 2015, 13:12

EWW wrote:My gripe is about able bodied fit people riding in and out of pedestrians as if they are in some
sort of slalom race. Those type of cretins are a menace and should be taken to task at every
opportunity.

I think we're in vigorous agreement about those. Riding like that is illegal, even where cycling isn't banned. I'd stop short of taking their bikes away, unless we're going to start seizing cars for speeding and mobile phone offences too, please.

My gripe is that ordinary people on bikes aren't allowed even to ride to/from the cycle parking and lawabiding people who want to cross town have a choice between dodging between lorries in the service yards (not really safe) and riding on the busy A148 (which only the fast and the brave will do) which does not encourage anyone to use bikes instead of clogging the town up with unnecessary cars... or just deciding the law is an ass and ignoring the signs.

There's tons of possibilities - none are perfect but I think most would be better than the current mess. For example, the South Quay-TMP-High St-Norfolk St route was approved as part of a project about five years ago but I think the only part built was the oddly-disconnected cycle crossing of Littleport Street; or the cheapest route would be to allow cycling contraflow on Norfolk Street between Chapel Street and Paradise Lane, which is a section already partly open to vehicles and would connect TMP to Market Lane to the bus station and Waterloo Street to the Walks.

According to the signs, it's no cycling but National Cycle Route 1 is signposted along High Street and New Conduit, which is one heck of a mixed message, isn't it? Do you know of any A roads which don't allow motor vehicles?

We've tried to fix this with bans and police and so on for years without success. Isn't it time to try fixing it by providing a decent route?
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Re: Cyclists riding in pedestrianised areas in Town Centre !

Postby EWW » 07 May 2015, 13:35

I am all for a decent safe route for cyclists to use that is just plain common sense.
Until we have a designated route right through the town linking up the lanes that
you mention people should not cycle through the areas that I have named. I drive
either in my car or on my m/cycle into and out of town at least 4 or 5 times a day.
Now I know they are not breaking the law, but the mad cyclists I see on a regular
basis wobbling along the carriageway on bikes that range from the old sit up and
beg type of bike, to mainly men in full racing regalia on a very narrow main artery
when there is a cycle lane in existance. How some of them, and I have seen some
narrow escapes do not get sqaushed like a hedgehog amazes me.
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Re: Cyclists riding in pedestrianised areas in Town Centre !

Postby MJR » 07 May 2015, 14:00

Ah well they don't get squished because cycling is relatively safe. It just doesn't feel much fun when you have to ride on a narrow main artery. It's even more annoying when money has been wasted on a cycle track that is more dangerous than the main carriageway - either by building it substandard (Gayton Road is the worst example - an uneven surface with loads of blind crossings) or by refusing to resurface it even when asked (parts of the A10 and Hardwick Road - bits have rattled off my bike on those).

I don't think "people should not cycle through the areas" is realistic and (in theory) cycling is meant to be encouraged and we don't do anything as obstructive as that for motor vehicles: currently, there's problems with pollution on London Road/Railway Road, but there's no move to stop people driving through those areas until there's viable alternatives. So I feel the alternative cycle route must be provided before we can expect most people to stop.
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Re: Cyclists riding in pedestrianised areas in Town Centre !

Postby steve in the city » 26 May 2018, 03:24

MJR stated that "cyclists seriously injuring someone makes national headlines." That is factually incorrect. On my local zebra crossing (where I now live in central London) an OAP was knocked down by a cyclist. I knew the OAP. He was in UCHL for months, had external fixation, was in massive pain and when he returned home he had to have carers because he was housebound for months. That did not even make the local news, let alone the national news. The cyclist cycled off and my friend did not receive one penny in compensation. An elderly lady of 85 (who I also know) was run down by a cyclist on the same crossing, who also cycled off. She was in hospital for 3 months. When discharged she was put in sheltered accommodation as she could no longer walk. I don't think MJR read about that in the national news, either. There was a tv programme here in London showing school children taking cyclists to boot because they were riding like madmen over crossings and not stopping for anyone. I am disabled, I use a mobility scooter to get around, and the only people I ever have trouble with are cyclists. They break every law going and the police do nothing. I live in a quiet (partially) one way street with a school opposite. Cyclists are not allowed to drive the wrong way along the street, so they don't. Isn't that good of them? Instead, they cycle like lunatics along the pavement. The only part of the street that is one way is a stretch of around 200 feet. Instead of dismounting and pushing their bikes, they come up on the pavement and stay there to the far end of the street, which is 2 way. Back to my local zebra crossing: I was helping an elderly neighbour across the road who walked very slowly and who has severe balance problems. He can suddenly stagger forward. Traffic stopped for us either side of the crossing but a cyclist cycled straight across in front of us, brushing by us. Had my neighbour staggered forward he would have been seriously hurt. It is high time something was done to stop cyclists cycling dangerously and being a hazard to pedestrians and other road users. What annoys me is when a cyclist is killed and all we hear about is safety to cyclists. They bring it upon themselves by reckless driving. I have seen a cyclist killed and several more have near death experiences. It is time the police did something.
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Re: Cyclists riding in pedestrianised areas in Town Centre !

Postby MJR » 01 Jun 2018, 15:45

To be blunt, show me the serious injury collisions on crashmap or similar and I'll be more inclined to believe that these stories actually happened in that way. Sadly, a minor injury can result in complications when the injured person is older and I suspect that's what happened there.

I can't comment on the London programme, not having seen it or even having enough there to go on to see if it's on youtube or similar.

steve in the city wrote:I am disabled, I use a mobility scooter to get around, and the only people I ever have trouble with are cyclists.

The motorists running red lights, driving along and parking on pavements, refusing to yield to people crossing side street entrances cause you no problems ever? I feel you're exaggerating again.

steve in the city wrote:I live in a quiet (partially) one way street with a school opposite. Cyclists are not allowed to drive the wrong way along the street, so they don't. Isn't that good of them? Instead, they cycle like lunatics along the pavement. The only part of the street that is one way is a stretch of around 200 feet. Instead of dismounting and pushing their bikes, they come up on the pavement and stay there to the far end of the street, which is 2 way.

Firstly, some of the cyclists may be disabled and unable to push that far, although that's probably only a minority of them.

Secondly, why on earth would you want them to be wider, wobblier and slower-moving, getting in your way on the pavement for longer and being far more likely to collide with your scooter?

Ultimately, fairer societies now have "Except Cycles" under almost every one-way or no-entry sign, but it's only just been legalised in this country. I expect if enough people complain to the council about that one then they'll add "Except Cycles" to the signs and it'll encourage more cyclists to remain on the carriageway instead of using the pavement.

steve in the city wrote:What annoys me is when a cyclist is killed and all we hear about is safety to cyclists. They bring it upon themselves by reckless driving. I have seen a cyclist killed and several more have near death experiences. It is time the police did something.

And what annoys me is when a cyclist is killed and all we hear is "they bring it upon themselves". Only a small minority do. 80% of all injuries to cyclists over 25-years-old are, according to the police officer recording the incident, either solely or partly the responsibility of the driver.

It is indeed time the police did something and fortunately they are, now accepting dashcam/bike cam and CCTV evidence with reports of traffic offences. I will be very surprised if motorists aren't the vast majority of offenders.

Anyway, I'm sure you're very happy that Norfolk County Council has spent loads of money on signs to reinstate the King's Lynn town centre cycling ban based on NO injuries, just after Norwich has decided to remove the restrictions on their city centre. We are turning away some of the most profitable customers from our town centre and there are now a half-dozen cycle parks which we can no longer legally cycle to, which is the height of insanity, especially at the start of the summer tourist season. We might as well be hanging a "cycle tourists - skip this town" sign over where National Routes 1 and 11 enter Lynn :-(
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Re: Cyclists riding in pedestrianised areas in Town Centre !

Postby steve in the city » 15 Jun 2018, 02:59

I don't know where you think I am exaggerating in my previous post. Perhaps you could clarify? You said "Sadly, a minor injury can result in complications when the injured person is older and I suspect that's what happened there." I am sorry to state the obvious but people of all ages have the right to cross on a zebra crossing without being run over by a cyclist. Age has nothing to do with it. A bus had stopped for the elderly man (he was 66 at the time and quite fit). He crossed over in front of the bus and as he passed it, making his way to the other side of the street, a cyclist came up on the other side of the bus and ran straight in to him at speed. Anyone would have ended up in hospital, regardless of age. There was nothing minor about it. People have a right to cross in safety on zebra crossings and when the green man is showing on crossings controlled by lights, and cyclists ought to respect this. You may remember that a 44 year old woman was killed in Old Street some months ago by a cyclist who was driving illegally and had no brakes. Prior to killing her he shouted abuse at her and showed no remorse in court. He got 18 months.
I travel along Old Street about 3 times a week and it is rare that I don't witness cyclists driving dangeroulsly. There is a big junction at one end of Old Street where a cyclist was killed a year or so ago. I don't know the details, but I can say that this particular junction is a hot spot of reckless cycling. I accidentally got in the way of a cyclist at this junction when I was crossing the road under the supposed safety of the Little Green Man. A cyclist was bombing along Old Street and had no intention of stopping at the red light. He had to swerve to avoid me and as he cycled over the junction he turned his head and shouted at me "you stupid effing c." I don't think I am stupid for crossing the road when the Little Green Man is on.
Yesterday I witnessed 3 acts of cycling lunacy on Old Street, two of them taking place on the crossing controlled by the Little Green Man.
You said "The motorists running red lights, driving along and parking on pavements, refusing to yield to people crossing side street entrances cause you no problems ever? I feel you're exaggerating again." I am not exaggerating because I didn't say any of this. Go back and have a look at my post. Where do I mention motorists? (I think this may be your issue if you are a cyclist). I can honestly say that I have never had to give way to a motorist driving along the pavement or in a pedestrianised area. The only problems I ever have are with cyclists.
As for cyclists driving along the pavement in my partially one-way street you said "Firstly, some of the cyclists may be disabled and unable to push that far, although that's probably only a minority of them. Secondly, why on earth would you want them to be wider, wobblier and slower-moving, getting in your way on the pavement for longer and being far more likely to collide with your scooter?"
MJR: Anyone who can cycle at speed along a pavement is physically able to push a bike for a couple of hundred feet. As for them getting in the way of my scooter, may I point out that I have a perfect legal right to ride my mobility scooter in safety on the pavement and anyone who thinks otherwise, or thinks that I should give way to an adult cyclist riding illegally along the pavement at an unsafe speed, or thinks I should be grateful that they are cycling so fast that they are less likely to collide with my scooter, needs to have a rethink. I live in a built-up area. Kids run out of my flats and on to the pavement and it is only a question of time before a speeding cyclist runs one over. On the other side of the street is a school and cyclists whizz straight across its entrance. You may be quite right that it is legal for cyclists to drive the wrong way along my side street. I don't know, so I am not in a position to argue. But they do so on the pavement, even when the road is completely empty. Why can't cyclists stay on the road? I quite understand if a cyclist needs to come on the pavement if the road is dangerous (not applicable in my side street) but why can't they dismount?
You said: "And what annoys me is when a cyclist is killed and all we hear is "they bring it upon themselves". Only a small minority do. 80% of all injuries to cyclists over 25-years-old are, according to the police officer recording the incident, either solely or partly the responsibility of the driver. It is indeed time the police did something and fortunately they are, now accepting dashcam/bike cam and CCTV evidence with reports of traffic offences. I will be very surprised if motorists aren't the vast majority of offenders." Well, I can't argue with that, either, as I don't have the facts at my fingertips. But I would say that if cyclists drove more carefully there would be less of these incidents. Especially here in Central London.
Finally, this thread is about cyclists driving in pedestrianised areas. Surely any cyclists coming across a pedestrianised area, while busy with people, should have the common sense and courtesy to dismount and push their bikes, regardless of any traffic signs?

Please take up your gripes with Norfolk County Council with them, as I no longer live in kings Lynn.
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Re: Cyclists riding in pedestrianised areas in Town Centre !

Postby MJR » 25 Jun 2018, 14:58

steve in the city wrote:I don't know where you think I am exaggerating in my previous post. Perhaps you could clarify?

Where you wrote that you only had problems with cyclists.

And I'm sorry to state the obvious, but show me the collision report and I'll form my own view of the collision you describe. I simply think you're giving one side of the story, which is quite understandable, but I suspect there's more to it. Even your description makes it sound like he stepped out blind from beside a bus - while any passing vehicle should approach blind corners of buses with more caution than they usually do, if that had been a passing motorist rather than a cyclist, he would probably be dead rather than injured!

Yes, cyclists should stop at red carriageway lights and the guy cycling an unsafe bike was a dangerous fool, but nothing of that has anything to do with banning responsible law-abiding people from cycling to the cycle parks and shops in King's Lynn town centre.

steve in the city wrote:MJR: Anyone who can cycle at speed along a pavement is physically able to push a bike for a couple of hundred feet.

That's simply not true. Just for an extreme case to disprove it, there are cyclists in West Norfolk who don't even have feet.

Also, all your rants about "riding illegally along the pavement at an unsafe speed" are completely beside the point. No-one is asking for illegal pavement cycling to be legalised - we just want to be allowed to ride key CARRIAGEWAYs in our town centre again, like we could until last month. There are still flipping Transit vans driving along them every day, faster than most cyclists would dare.

steve in the city wrote:Finally, this thread is about cyclists driving in pedestrianised areas. Surely any cyclists coming across a pedestrianised area, while busy with people, should have the common sense and courtesy to dismount and push their bikes, regardless of any traffic signs?

Why do you feel it's courteous to dismount and push their bikes and thereby be a wider, less stable and less easily controlled obstacle to people walking for longer? I believe it's common sense to slow down and be ready to stop but to make a smooth, obvious and prompt move to the cycle park or exit route so I'm out of their way.

steve in the city wrote:Please take up your gripes with Norfolk County Council with them, as I no longer live in kings Lynn.

Oh I do. Don't you worry about that.
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Re: Cyclists riding in pedestrianised areas in Town Centre !

Postby steve in the city » 27 Jun 2018, 04:30

MJR: It IS only cyclists I have problems with so no, I am not exaggerating. Pedestrians and motorised vehicles cause me no problems at all. About 2.5 years ago I had a serious accident and was in hospital for 2 months and then housebound for several weeks. I became a little more mobile and bought my 4mph pavement scooter. In September I will have been using it for 2 years but am starting to walk again. My problems with cyclists go back several years, and all my neighbours have the same problem. I have two friends who are black cab drivers. Ask them about cyclists and you will hear the f word in profusion.

About the elderly man who got run over. I think you are totally misunderstanding the situation. He was our local Tory councillor, an ex-magistrate and at the time of his accident a funeral director. He was fit, active, mentally astute and about 66 years old. Although he was a friend of mine I didn’t know his exact age, he was about 15 years my senior. He died about a month ago. I last saw him several months ago in UCHL where he was still receiving treatment for his leg; this would be about 4 years after his accident. A bus stopped at the Zebra crossing. The oncoming traffic on the other side of the street stopped. My friend crossed the crossing, and was run over by a cyclist driving in the middle of the road. The cyclist did not stop. This would have been a serious accident for anyone of any age, and the person responsible was the cyclist, so please try to accept this. Nothing to with my friends age, but everything to do with a reckless cyclist. My friend did not step out blind from beside a bus, there were no blind corners. He was crossing the road on a Zebra crossing, please try and understand this. My friend was the victim of a reckless cyclist who couldn’t be bothered to stop at a crossing. I am sorry, I don’t have a collision report. It quite slipped my mind to get one. Can you please get over it was my friends fault that he was run over on a Zebra crossing by a cyclist because he was the victim. And that is me stating the obvious.

If you are cycling legally in Kings Lynn town centre to shops and cycle parks then you should not have a problem. Take this up with Kings Lynn police.

I do feel sorry for cyclists who don’t have feet, but the cyclists who drive on the pavement along my street are mainly fit and healthy City professionals who ski for their holidays.

MJR: You said “Also, all your rants about "riding illegally along the pavement at an unsafe speed" are completely beside the point. No-one is asking for illegal pavement cycling to be legalised - we just want to be allowed to ride key CARRIAGEWAYs in our town centre again, like we could until last month. There are still flipping Transit vans driving along them every day, faster than most cyclists would dare.” I quite agree with what you say, but that does not negate my rant about cyclists bombing along the pavement at speed, and my views on this subject are not beside the point. Cyclists should not cycle on the pavement, full stop.

That said, I think you should be able to cycle in safety and along key streets. I grew up in the heart of London and cycled all around the tourist areas like Buckingham Palace, Houses of Parliament etc. But I had to obey the Highway Code, so I stopped at red lights etc. Had I not done this, I would have gotten a clip around the ear. Later, in Kings Lynn, I cycled everywhere - but I had to obey the Highway Code. These days, cyclists seem to think that the Highway Code doesn’t affect them. White van drivers are a nuisance. Last time I was in Kings Lynn a friend of mine gave me a lift in his white van; I was terrified. But this thread is about cyclists driving on the pavement. By the way, I do think it is courteous for cyclists to dismount in pedestrianised areas - why shouldn’t they? Why can’t a cyclist dismount when they are around pedestrians?
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Re: Cyclists riding in pedestrianised areas in Town Centre !

Postby MJR » 13 Jul 2018, 17:52

steve in the city wrote:I have two friends who are black cab drivers. Ask them about cyclists and you will hear the f word in profusion.

And, sadly, the reverse is true, with black cabs maybe ranking only just behind minicabs, white vans and tipper-type trucks for bad driving that endangers cyclists and is described in f-laden terms, but I think that's a bit more understandable because cyclists' lives are in danger, whereas cyclists mainly endanger black cabbies' livelihoods (if cycling becomes easy, far fewer taxis will be used). It'd be helpful if everyone would calm down and be nice to each other, but I don't think any user group is particularly saintly on that.

steve in the city wrote:I am sorry, I don’t have a collision report. It quite slipped my mind to get one.

The date and place of the collision would make it findable but this unverified collision didn't happen on a pedestrianised street or in King's Lynn so it's really off-topic here no matter how you keep

steve in the city wrote:If you are cycling legally in Kings Lynn town centre to shops and cycle parks then you should not have a problem. Take this up with Kings Lynn police.

Sadly, the nasty councils have just reinstated the ban. You can drive a courier white van along the so-called pedestrianised streets at 20mph but not cycle below 10mph. Surely even you can see that seems rather unjust and absurd?

Skipping to the end...
steve in the city wrote:But this thread is about cyclists driving on the pavement.

No, it's about cycling in pedestrianised areas. Most of the streets in our pedestrianised areas still have marked carriageways, used by the aforementioned couriers, with footways along the sides.

steve in the city wrote:By the way, I do think it is courteous for cyclists to dismount in pedestrianised areas - why shouldn’t they? Why can’t a cyclist dismount when they are around pedestrians?

They shouldn't because pushed bikes are much wider (typically 1.5m wide instead of about 70cm) and less stable (because they're designed to be propelled by the rear wheel, not pushed from one side of the handlebars), so it's far more of an obstruction than a bike ridden slowly and considerately, giving way to pedestrians. Even for those who can physically able to push a loaded bike without dropping it on someone, it just seems rude to take up more space than necessary and get in everyone else's way for far longer than necessary.

Also, in theory we want people to cycle if they can (rather than drive) because cycling uses road space and parking space more efficiently, pollutes less and helps keep them healthy (reducing the pressure on local health services), but telling people to push their vehicle the final yards to the parking spaces makes it less attractive because we never expect motorists to do that.
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Re: Cyclists riding in pedestrianised areas in Town Centre !

Postby Tresagreen » 13 Jul 2018, 20:12

Isn't it time you both agreed to disagree on this subject. It's in danger of becoming a slanging match and that is not what this forum is about. Gone on long enough now lads, give it a rest please. T
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