Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby baobab » 23 Mar 2021, 23:13

Nick, did you find out where Elder and Mrs Ives were buried? I very much doubt that they got their wish and were buried together.
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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby nickc » 24 Mar 2021, 08:07

Hi Baobab, no I didn't, I'll see what I can find after work tonight. Nick.
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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby Tresagreen » 24 Mar 2021, 08:51

According to the burial register, Arthur Elder was buried at West Newton with Appleton. No info on Mrs Ives.

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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby EWW » 24 Mar 2021, 09:27

This is Newton church that is a stones throw from Appleton. I think he may be buried here. I will take a look round next
time I go by to see if there is a stone. Do not think there will be though.

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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby baobab » 24 Mar 2021, 09:58

I walked round that churchyard once, although I wasn't looking for any graves in particular. I'd agree with EWW that he was probably buried in an unmarked grave. There was a somewhat similar case in Gloucestershire about ten years earlier where a man shot his sweetheart and thought he'd killed her (he hadn't), then shot himself - he was buried in the local churchyard in an unmarked grave at 10 o'clock at night, with only twenty people in attendance.
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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby KTL16825 » 24 Mar 2021, 11:49

baobab wrote:Nick, did you find out where Elder and Mrs Ives were buried? I very much doubt that they got their wish and were buried together.


According to the Lynn Advertiser, " The man Elder was buried on Monday night at West Newton and Grace Ives on the same night at Dersingham". Ancestry's burial records for Dersingham do not cover the period 1907 to 1919, nor can I find anything on Find My Past. The NRO has microform records up to 1904 only, but the original registers cover up to 1957.
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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby EWW » 24 Mar 2021, 13:38

Yes I spent quite a bit of time this morning going round the graveyard Could not find anything at all.

It was the practice well into the 20th c that suicides and murders burials were held not before 10 oclock at night. In earlier times they
were not allowed to be buried in concecrated ground at all.

Just one piece I found on the same subject. Lots of interesting stuff out there for same.

My g.grandmother's brother took his own life at the age of 16. I know he is buried at St Paul's in Marton, although I don't know exactly where. My question is, since the inquest declared that he committed suicide 'whilst of unsound mind', would he have had a 'normal' funeral? This would be in 1870.

I believe that in those days somebody who had committed suicide was judged (by the religious authorities) to have committed a grave sin: that of despair. They were generally not buried in consecrated ground. Crossroads were considered a suitable place to bury a suicide, though I don't know why.

Thank goodness most religious bodies today are more understanding, in that they say a person isn't of sound mind when killing or attempting to kill themselves. Think of the distress of the friends and relatives of the poor souls, who mostly believed in an afterlife in those days.
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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby baobab » 24 Mar 2021, 14:32

This is a newspaper report of a December 1902 burial of a suicide in the Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire.

...."It had been the intention of the family of the deceased [Thomas Harris], that the interment should take place immediately following the inquest, and to that end a grave had been dug in the burial ground adjoining Bethel Chapel. The jury, however, have found a verdict of felo-de-se [suicide]. The coroner was consulted, and he explained his views and the laws bearing on the incident. They learn from the coroner that they might, if they chose, proceed to bury the body, but upon the strength of the warrant which it would be his duty to serve upon the churchwardens and the parish constable, those ecclesiastics would be within their own right in claiming the body and re-interring it in the parish churchyard. Therefore, the pastor agreed that the grave should be refilled, and that the law should run its own course unchallenged. It next fell to the lot of John Morgan to dig a grave in the church burial-ground for the reception of the corpse. The spot, which was chosen on Monday morning immediately after the vicar had received the coroner's warrant from the constable in charge was situate at the most remote corner of the graveyard and immediately underneath a long, low-lying roof of a farm building, known as Church Farm.
....The coroner's warrant directed that the interment should take place between the hours of nine o'clock and twelve o'clock that night. The poor ex-soldier had been a corpse of a full week, and in spite of the very many inquiries as to when the funeral was to be, those in the know kept the fact a profound secret. Tempestuous weather prevented the arrangement that the corpse should reach the church at nine o'clock. Shortly before ten, however, an ordinary spring-cart, with lamps dimly burning approached the sacred edifice. How well the time of the funeral had been kept was shown by the fact that, except for those officially concerned, not more than four "rank outsiders" were present. The coffin was received at a small side gate by the vicar, who appeared in ordinary evening attire. Behind him was the sexton, then came the corpse, enclosed in an elm coffin, and four under-bearers."

The solitary mourners were the brother and brother-in-law of the deceased. Also present were two police constables, two pressmen, and "a quartette of villagers."

...."There was, of course, no tolling of the bell and no service in the church. When the vicar had learnt that all was ready, the cortege moved to the graveside. The coffin was lowered on to the ground from the men's shoulders, and next into its last resting-place. The vicar, standing close to, then requested those present to make bare their heads, and added that, now that the coffin was in the grave, he would offer a short prayer. He implored the Almighty to look with ccompassion upon the sinful man, and to forgive deceased his great crime. The vicar then repeated the Lord's Prayer, in which all present reverently followed. The sad incident then came to an end. No light was used, or needed; the glistening snow and keen twinkling stars afforded sufficient for the purpose."

From a report of another suicide's funeral that I've read, it seems that those conducting the graveside service omitted the phrase "We therefore commit this body to the ground, earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust; in sure and certain hope of the Resurrection to eternal life." Presumably the belief was that suicides wouldn't get eternal life.
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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby EWW » 24 Mar 2021, 14:41

Im lucky in that my eldest daughter owns her own undertakers business Bonds of Stoke ferry. When I go it will be up the chimney and ashes
scattered at sea. No prayers..No marker for me...life is for the living.
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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby EWW » 24 Mar 2021, 14:47

During my wanderings round the village today I did see what was the estate police house that I suppose the husband went to fetch the policeman
from. I did not take a picture but will next time.
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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby KTL16825 » 25 Mar 2021, 19:52

Attached is Arthur Elder's military record. Click for large picture.

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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby KTL16825 » 26 Mar 2021, 17:05

Some details on the movements of the 3rd batallion Grenadier Guards to South Africa via Gibraltar. No doubt Alfred Elder was among their number. Sources: The Morning Post 23 Sep. 1899 and The Dundee Advertiser 27 Oct. 1899.

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Re: Double tragedy in the King's Lynn area, August 1913

Postby EWW » 02 Apr 2021, 09:46

The old police house where the wronged husband went for help...very close to the events of the night.

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